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	<title>Comments on: Election Day 2009 Brings Mixed Results</title>
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	<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/</link>
	<description>Stony Brook University&#039;s Progressive Voice</description>
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		<title>By: Dominic La Maison</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1536</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic La Maison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1536</guid>
		<description>BAM what amuses me about your argument is how you start out refuting a point I did not make notably your statement that my reasoning is flawed when it comes to the constitutionality of a Federal takeover of healthcare. First off, I am NOT in support of a Federal takeover of healthcare so your point is moot. I am in support of Health Insurance reform as expounded in bills such as HR 3200 and HR 3962 NEITHER OF WHICH REPRESENT a &quot;Federal takeover of Healthcare.&quot; Now as to the constitutionality of Healthcare reform as it relates to the elastic clause, yes it would be constitutional. The elastic clause allows quite a bit of leverage when it comes to application of enumerated powers. Under the elastic clause Congress can use it&#039;s ENUMERATED powers to &quot;lay and collect taxes and duties, imposts and excises, to pay for debts and provide for the common defense and GENERAL WELFARE of the United States... and the Commerce Clause to execute healthcare reform. Of course this requires a liberal rather than strict constructionist view of the Constitution which is more than supported by Supreme Court precedent.(examples are McCullough vs Maryland and South Dakota vs Dole.) Cherry picking the constitution, I think not.
Thank You
Dominic La Maison
P.S- on an off note I like your bit of equivocation on the meaning of Domestic Tranquility, I guess your argument would not be complete without another logical fallacy ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BAM what amuses me about your argument is how you start out refuting a point I did not make notably your statement that my reasoning is flawed when it comes to the constitutionality of a Federal takeover of healthcare. First off, I am NOT in support of a Federal takeover of healthcare so your point is moot. I am in support of Health Insurance reform as expounded in bills such as HR 3200 and HR 3962 NEITHER OF WHICH REPRESENT a &#8220;Federal takeover of Healthcare.&#8221; Now as to the constitutionality of Healthcare reform as it relates to the elastic clause, yes it would be constitutional. The elastic clause allows quite a bit of leverage when it comes to application of enumerated powers. Under the elastic clause Congress can use it&#8217;s ENUMERATED powers to &#8220;lay and collect taxes and duties, imposts and excises, to pay for debts and provide for the common defense and GENERAL WELFARE of the United States&#8230; and the Commerce Clause to execute healthcare reform. Of course this requires a liberal rather than strict constructionist view of the Constitution which is more than supported by Supreme Court precedent.(examples are McCullough vs Maryland and South Dakota vs Dole.) Cherry picking the constitution, I think not.<br />
Thank You<br />
Dominic La Maison<br />
P.S- on an off note I like your bit of equivocation on the meaning of Domestic Tranquility, I guess your argument would not be complete without another logical fallacy <img src='http://thinksb.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1535</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1535</guid>
		<description>lol not dressages bloody spell check! Disagrees</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol not dressages bloody spell check! Disagrees</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1534</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1534</guid>
		<description>lol brian lets talk easy for republicans,  shout loud about Mexican taking jobs, say u love your country and if anyone dressages then they arn&#039;t true american,  leave everything to the government of bureaucrat who say &quot;were fine&quot; when they are slitting everyones throats who doest make enough to support their family even though they have 2-3 jobs and a BA from a NOTABLE college.   Damn gays using the bible as a shield without any tolerance to other religions unless they stay silent.  yep easy street us democrats/liberals/independents were just ignorant people right?  I&#039;m not saying Obama is the cure all but at least he doesn&#039;t feed the american people lies and some sugar coated topping over what he&#039;s accomplished.  doesn&#039;t use fear to keep people from speaking their mind and feeling we need him in office to protect us.  so lets talk about someone trying to make a difference with healthcare cause he see&#039;s what we have isn&#039;t working...  oh wait the government is trying to control america now?  who bailed out all these banks and car manufacturers?  it wasn&#039;t a democrat.  talk is easy and so is criticism but to take action is the merit we need in this country.  I&#039;ve written memorials and lobbied and wrote bill&#039;s and lobbied and passed them into law. I am  not the most sophisticated man on this planet or this message board.  however i don&#039;t stand back and leave my name on some petition thinking i did some part for america n shout my values n try to shove them down the throats of others.  this is what we got and it will only be what we make of it.  at least we now have a few people we can believe in what they do is on them.  but its better than having a government that we cant trust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol brian lets talk easy for republicans,  shout loud about Mexican taking jobs, say u love your country and if anyone dressages then they arn&#8217;t true american,  leave everything to the government of bureaucrat who say &#8220;were fine&#8221; when they are slitting everyones throats who doest make enough to support their family even though they have 2-3 jobs and a BA from a NOTABLE college.   Damn gays using the bible as a shield without any tolerance to other religions unless they stay silent.  yep easy street us democrats/liberals/independents were just ignorant people right?  I&#8217;m not saying Obama is the cure all but at least he doesn&#8217;t feed the american people lies and some sugar coated topping over what he&#8217;s accomplished.  doesn&#8217;t use fear to keep people from speaking their mind and feeling we need him in office to protect us.  so lets talk about someone trying to make a difference with healthcare cause he see&#8217;s what we have isn&#8217;t working&#8230;  oh wait the government is trying to control america now?  who bailed out all these banks and car manufacturers?  it wasn&#8217;t a democrat.  talk is easy and so is criticism but to take action is the merit we need in this country.  I&#8217;ve written memorials and lobbied and wrote bill&#8217;s and lobbied and passed them into law. I am  not the most sophisticated man on this planet or this message board.  however i don&#8217;t stand back and leave my name on some petition thinking i did some part for america n shout my values n try to shove them down the throats of others.  this is what we got and it will only be what we make of it.  at least we now have a few people we can believe in what they do is on them.  but its better than having a government that we cant trust.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Alan Martin</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1531</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Alan Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1531</guid>
		<description>No, Dominic, it is YOUR reasoning that is flawed, regarding the constitutionality of a Federal takeover of health care (in point 3 of your message).

Firstly, the &quot;necessary and proper&quot; clause appears at the end of list of powers granted to the Congress, and it explicitly refers to &quot;the foregoing powers&quot;and applies ONLY to the specific powers granted to Congress by the Constitution.  It does NOT mean that Congress itself may decide whatever it thinks is &quot;necessary and proper&quot; (which would be defined as absolute tyranny -- which is exactly what was meant to be prohibited by having a list of enumerated powers).

Secondly, the &quot;General Welfare&quot; clause is NOT a grant of power.  It appears in the preamble as one of the reasons for the Constitution, not as a provision of it.  

I also note that the preamble also lists other reasons, such as:  &quot;to insure the domestic tranquility&quot; -- but that does not mean the Federal government has the power to force people to smoke pot.  (Nor does it give the Feds the power to outlaw it, either!)  The preamble says that, in order to achieve such goal, we the people, &quot;do ordain and establish this Constitution&quot;.  The Constitution then goes on to enumerate the powers; the Bill of Rights (Tenth Amendment) makes clear that there are no further Federal powers, beyond those enumerated, and reserves everything else to the people and/or the States.

When quoting the Constitution, please do not cherry-pick and quote out of context -- even tho that would be the only way to argue that Congress actually has the right to control health care (or pot).  

The Congress, which was created by the Constitution, has no right to EXIST if it tries to exceed the powers given it by its creator -- in order to trample on the rights of the people! 

Yours, in Liberty,
  -/bam/
Bruce Alan Martin
(&quot;Long Island Liberty, with BAM&quot;
Tuesdays at noon, on WUSB 90.1 FM Stony Brook)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Dominic, it is YOUR reasoning that is flawed, regarding the constitutionality of a Federal takeover of health care (in point 3 of your message).</p>
<p>Firstly, the &#8220;necessary and proper&#8221; clause appears at the end of list of powers granted to the Congress, and it explicitly refers to &#8220;the foregoing powers&#8221;and applies ONLY to the specific powers granted to Congress by the Constitution.  It does NOT mean that Congress itself may decide whatever it thinks is &#8220;necessary and proper&#8221; (which would be defined as absolute tyranny &#8212; which is exactly what was meant to be prohibited by having a list of enumerated powers).</p>
<p>Secondly, the &#8220;General Welfare&#8221; clause is NOT a grant of power.  It appears in the preamble as one of the reasons for the Constitution, not as a provision of it.  </p>
<p>I also note that the preamble also lists other reasons, such as:  &#8220;to insure the domestic tranquility&#8221; &#8212; but that does not mean the Federal government has the power to force people to smoke pot.  (Nor does it give the Feds the power to outlaw it, either!)  The preamble says that, in order to achieve such goal, we the people, &#8220;do ordain and establish this Constitution&#8221;.  The Constitution then goes on to enumerate the powers; the Bill of Rights (Tenth Amendment) makes clear that there are no further Federal powers, beyond those enumerated, and reserves everything else to the people and/or the States.</p>
<p>When quoting the Constitution, please do not cherry-pick and quote out of context &#8212; even tho that would be the only way to argue that Congress actually has the right to control health care (or pot).  </p>
<p>The Congress, which was created by the Constitution, has no right to EXIST if it tries to exceed the powers given it by its creator &#8212; in order to trample on the rights of the people! </p>
<p>Yours, in Liberty,<br />
  -/bam/<br />
Bruce Alan Martin<br />
(&#8220;Long Island Liberty, with BAM&#8221;<br />
Tuesdays at noon, on WUSB 90.1 FM Stony Brook)</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1528</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1528</guid>
		<description>Brian,

    Your question regarding the Constitution is patently flawed. Where in the Constitution does it state that DUI should be a criminal offense, that driving while using a cell phone should be illegal, that animals should have rights (or even Rights groups), or that women should be allowed to vote? Wait, about that last one, it didn&#039;t say it in the original Constitution, but someone figured out that the original document left out a few rights that the founding fathers didn&#039;t foresee. Amendments. There are quite a few. You do realize that, don&#039;t you?

  The comment regarding the &quot;lazy&quot; versus the &quot;hard-working&quot; lacks intellectual basis as well. There are members of this society that are paid quite well for a minimum amount of effort, and there are those that are compensated poorly for extremely challenging tasks. Professional golfers earn millions. Office clerks, who work 45-50 hours in a standard week, earn significantly less. There&#039;s just no correlation between energy expended and income earned. This doesn&#039;t even take into consideration the fact that not all of the unemployed and uninsured are lazy, or lack ambition. Only an idiot would believe that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the number of jobs and the number of people in the workforce. Do you believe that? Every seen a game of musical chairs being played? The same concept applies.

  Your post contains far more vitriol than facts. I guess that&#039;s what&#039;s great about the Constitution. Even narrow-minded opinions can be stated. This is mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>    Your question regarding the Constitution is patently flawed. Where in the Constitution does it state that DUI should be a criminal offense, that driving while using a cell phone should be illegal, that animals should have rights (or even Rights groups), or that women should be allowed to vote? Wait, about that last one, it didn&#8217;t say it in the original Constitution, but someone figured out that the original document left out a few rights that the founding fathers didn&#8217;t foresee. Amendments. There are quite a few. You do realize that, don&#8217;t you?</p>
<p>  The comment regarding the &#8220;lazy&#8221; versus the &#8220;hard-working&#8221; lacks intellectual basis as well. There are members of this society that are paid quite well for a minimum amount of effort, and there are those that are compensated poorly for extremely challenging tasks. Professional golfers earn millions. Office clerks, who work 45-50 hours in a standard week, earn significantly less. There&#8217;s just no correlation between energy expended and income earned. This doesn&#8217;t even take into consideration the fact that not all of the unemployed and uninsured are lazy, or lack ambition. Only an idiot would believe that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the number of jobs and the number of people in the workforce. Do you believe that? Every seen a game of musical chairs being played? The same concept applies.</p>
<p>  Your post contains far more vitriol than facts. I guess that&#8217;s what&#8217;s great about the Constitution. Even narrow-minded opinions can be stated. This is mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1527</guid>
		<description>Brian,

    Your question regarding the Constitution is patently flawed. Where in the Constitution does it state that DUI should be a criminal offense, that driving while on a cell phone should be illeagal, that animals should have rights (or even Rights groups), or that women should be allowed to vote? Wait, about that last one, it didn&#039;t say it in the original Constitution, but someone figured out that the original document left out a few rights that the founding fathers didn&#039;t foresee. Amendments. There are quite a few. You do realize that, don&#039;t you?

  The comment about the lazy versus the hard-working lacks intellectual basis as well. There are members of this society that are paid quite well for a minimum amount of effort, and there are those that are compensated poorly for extremely challenging tasks. Professional golfers earn millions. Office clerks, who work 45-50 hours in a standard week, earn significantly less. There&#039;s just no correlation between energy expended and income earned. This doesn&#039;t even take into consideration the fact that not all of the unemployed and uninsured are lazy, or lack ambition. Only an idiot would believe that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the number of jobs and the number of people in the workforce. Do you believe that? Every seen a game of musical chairs being played? The same concept applies.

  Your post contains far more vitriol than facts. I guess that&#039;s what&#039;s great about the Constitution. Even narrow-minded opinions can be stated. This is mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>    Your question regarding the Constitution is patently flawed. Where in the Constitution does it state that DUI should be a criminal offense, that driving while on a cell phone should be illeagal, that animals should have rights (or even Rights groups), or that women should be allowed to vote? Wait, about that last one, it didn&#8217;t say it in the original Constitution, but someone figured out that the original document left out a few rights that the founding fathers didn&#8217;t foresee. Amendments. There are quite a few. You do realize that, don&#8217;t you?</p>
<p>  The comment about the lazy versus the hard-working lacks intellectual basis as well. There are members of this society that are paid quite well for a minimum amount of effort, and there are those that are compensated poorly for extremely challenging tasks. Professional golfers earn millions. Office clerks, who work 45-50 hours in a standard week, earn significantly less. There&#8217;s just no correlation between energy expended and income earned. This doesn&#8217;t even take into consideration the fact that not all of the unemployed and uninsured are lazy, or lack ambition. Only an idiot would believe that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the number of jobs and the number of people in the workforce. Do you believe that? Every seen a game of musical chairs being played? The same concept applies.</p>
<p>  Your post contains far more vitriol than facts. I guess that&#8217;s what&#8217;s great about the Constitution. Even narrow-minded opinions can be stated. This is mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1526</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1526</guid>
		<description>Yes brian this is indeed a liberal run site. We are very proud to bring you the progressive perspective and we make no efforts to hide it. Now on to your post. 1) The voice of the majority, what are you talking about? I would like to remind you that the last time we had a  nationwide election the voice of the majority decisively voted for the liberal candidate. 2) Characterizing those without insurance as those who are lazy is foolish because the ranks of the uninsured include the employed who simply do not have enough money to keep up with exploding premiums and those who cannot get insurance based on pre-existing conditions or medical history.3) Your constitutional argument is also flawed because the United States Constitution allows for the &quot;promotion of the general welfare&quot; and the power to tax and spend not to mention the &quot;necessary and proper&quot; clause which would justify Healthcare reform. Secondly as to gay rights there is an interesting Amendment known as the Fourteenth, Look it up. Finally a few fun questions for strict constructionists of yourself. Should we abolish the airforce, nothing in the constitution acknowleges that only &quot;land and naval&quot; forces. Should we give back the Louisiana purchase, nothing in the constitution promotes this, should the Supreme Court be stripped of it&#039;s self established power(Marbury vs Madison) to establish the constitutionality of laws since the constitution does not grant it this power? I urge you to THiNK about these questions. Have a nice day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes brian this is indeed a liberal run site. We are very proud to bring you the progressive perspective and we make no efforts to hide it. Now on to your post. 1) The voice of the majority, what are you talking about? I would like to remind you that the last time we had a  nationwide election the voice of the majority decisively voted for the liberal candidate. 2) Characterizing those without insurance as those who are lazy is foolish because the ranks of the uninsured include the employed who simply do not have enough money to keep up with exploding premiums and those who cannot get insurance based on pre-existing conditions or medical history.3) Your constitutional argument is also flawed because the United States Constitution allows for the &#8220;promotion of the general welfare&#8221; and the power to tax and spend not to mention the &#8220;necessary and proper&#8221; clause which would justify Healthcare reform. Secondly as to gay rights there is an interesting Amendment known as the Fourteenth, Look it up. Finally a few fun questions for strict constructionists of yourself. Should we abolish the airforce, nothing in the constitution acknowleges that only &#8220;land and naval&#8221; forces. Should we give back the Louisiana purchase, nothing in the constitution promotes this, should the Supreme Court be stripped of it&#8217;s self established power(Marbury vs Madison) to establish the constitutionality of laws since the constitution does not grant it this power? I urge you to THiNK about these questions. Have a nice day.</p>
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		<title>By: CJ</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1525</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1525</guid>
		<description>@ Brian - Obviously, you must be a republican, because only someone narrow-minded would think that everyone unemployed is lazy.  Since unemployment is over 10%, we must be a really lazy country; I mean, all those people who don&#039;t want to work or even bother finding a job...what a sharp insight you offer to this troubling situation!!!

And you&#039;re right...it&#039;s not the Constitution that says &quot;All men are created equal&quot;; it was the Declaration of Independence.  You know, the document that inspired our ancestors to create a framework of government where anyone can rise to the top...gay or otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Brian &#8211; Obviously, you must be a republican, because only someone narrow-minded would think that everyone unemployed is lazy.  Since unemployment is over 10%, we must be a really lazy country; I mean, all those people who don&#8217;t want to work or even bother finding a job&#8230;what a sharp insight you offer to this troubling situation!!!</p>
<p>And you&#8217;re right&#8230;it&#8217;s not the Constitution that says &#8220;All men are created equal&#8221;; it was the Declaration of Independence.  You know, the document that inspired our ancestors to create a framework of government where anyone can rise to the top&#8230;gay or otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1524</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1524</guid>
		<description>Obviously this a liberal run site!  Perhaps the voice of the majority should be heard a little more often when issues are considered.  Where in the constitution does it say that gay is ok or that the hard working employed have to pay for medical insurance for those that have no ambition to work.  Democrats make it so easy for the lazy to survive and take that from someone that works around inner city individuals all day every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously this a liberal run site!  Perhaps the voice of the majority should be heard a little more often when issues are considered.  Where in the constitution does it say that gay is ok or that the hard working employed have to pay for medical insurance for those that have no ambition to work.  Democrats make it so easy for the lazy to survive and take that from someone that works around inner city individuals all day every day.</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://thinksb.com/2009/11/election-day-2009-brings-mixed-results/comment-page-1/#comment-1523</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thinksb.com/?p=920#comment-1523</guid>
		<description>you know i read this article and laugh how pot is chosen over gays.  i wish that was the biggest concern when i live seeing racism everyday in my small little town.  i pray that one day tolerance will prevail and the ideology of campaigns wont be what fuels them but the character of a man even if he does not conform entirely to his party.  of course that could be a fairy tale but i rather people leave the merit of a man to his actions and not the color of his skin or his preference in sexuality but that it goes both ways for liberals and republicans alike.  it seems one complains of what the other does but when given the chance they feel they must correct society and make them conform to their ideas vs being the better person and doing it right.   otherwise your no different than those u were against to begin with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you know i read this article and laugh how pot is chosen over gays.  i wish that was the biggest concern when i live seeing racism everyday in my small little town.  i pray that one day tolerance will prevail and the ideology of campaigns wont be what fuels them but the character of a man even if he does not conform entirely to his party.  of course that could be a fairy tale but i rather people leave the merit of a man to his actions and not the color of his skin or his preference in sexuality but that it goes both ways for liberals and republicans alike.  it seems one complains of what the other does but when given the chance they feel they must correct society and make them conform to their ideas vs being the better person and doing it right.   otherwise your no different than those u were against to begin with.</p>
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